{"id":15711,"date":"2024-04-15T01:15:31","date_gmt":"2024-04-15T05:15:31","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/nycphantom.com\/journal\/?p=15711"},"modified":"2025-05-18T10:11:23","modified_gmt":"2025-05-18T14:11:23","slug":"the-greek-orthodox-eastern-church","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/nycphantom.com\/journal\/?p=15711","title":{"rendered":"The Greek Orthodox (Eastern) Church"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p>Since someone at church mentioned that the Eastern church (Orthodox, with capital \"O\") is closer to \"true\" Christianity\" than Roman Catholicism, which just seems logically odd since the Protestant church came out of the West instead of the East, meaning that Rome parted ways (schism) with the Greeks in the 11th century over theological issue and any doctrinal differences must have diverged further through history, thus, making Rome (instead of the Greeks) to be closer to the protestant faith.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But this is just a conjecture of mine. The repetition of such encounter at church only reactivates my curiosity in this subject: <strong>What does the East believe? What are the differences against Reformed theology? How wrong were the Orthodox?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I remember trying to look this up years ago, before any personal encounter of the issue. Perhaps it was Frank Schaeffer and Hank Hanegraaff's conversions to the East, that prompted my interest in the matter. But I couldn't find much to go on. Other than the Filioque debate, icons and something about mysticism, I could not find more clarity online.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I'm redoing this research again. First stop, from an <a href=\"https:\/\/www.opc.org\/new_horizons\/calvinist_on_orthodoxy.html\" data-type=\"link\" data-id=\"https:\/\/www.opc.org\/new_horizons\/calvinist_on_orthodoxy.html\">OPC article: A Calvinist Looks at Orthodoxy by Jack D. Kinneer<\/a>:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Appeal<\/strong>:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Orthodox Christianity was <strong>older <\/strong>than the Roman church. Most<strong> Church Fathers<\/strong> were Greek-speaking theologians in the <strong>East<\/strong>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Unbroken succession of churches from the apostles (From <a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Andrew_the_Apostle#:~:text=According%20to%20Eastern%20Orthodox%20tradition,is%20the%20Patriarch%20of%20Constantinople.\" data-type=\"link\" data-id=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Andrew_the_Apostle#:~:text=According%20to%20Eastern%20Orthodox%20tradition,is%20the%20Patriarch%20of%20Constantinople.\">St. Andrew<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.trueorthodoxy.org\/na\/gocamerica\/history_canonicity_apostolic_succession.shtml\" data-type=\"link\" data-id=\"https:\/\/www.trueorthodoxy.org\/na\/gocamerica\/history_canonicity_apostolic_succession.shtml\">,<\/a> <a href=\"https:\/\/www.trueorthodoxy.org\/na\/gocamerica\/history_canonicity_apostolic_succession.shtml\" data-type=\"link\" data-id=\"https:\/\/www.trueorthodoxy.org\/na\/gocamerica\/history_canonicity_apostolic_succession.shtml\">apparently<\/a>), but not based on Bishop succession of Rome (From St. Peter) and this makes the protestants seen as the product of a schism off a schism. However, they have no problem considering the Reformed as Christians, just not part of their \"true\" church and thus, invalidating our ordinations and sacraments. By breaking away from Rome, the Greeks do not burden themselves with <strong>Papacy<\/strong>, <strong>purgatory<\/strong>, <strong>indulgences<\/strong>, the immaculate conception of <strong>Mary<\/strong>, her assumption into heaven. Doesn't really have any medieval doctrines and practices that the Reformation inherited from (<strong>mysticism<\/strong>?).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Rich liturgical heritage: clergy garment, elaborate liturgies, symbols and icons.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Otherness: Mysterious, sensual, heavenly. Based on the Book of Revelation?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Shortcomings:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>No doctrinal statement<\/strong> other than ecumenical councils and 49 volumes of Ante- &amp; Post-Nicene Fathers and writings of the hermits\/monastics = <strong>Desert Fathers.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Rejection\/No understanding of <strong>justification by faith<\/strong>. <strong>Sanctification = The whole Gospel<\/strong> is <strong>Theosis=deification<\/strong>. Thus, more on Sanctification rather than justification. I would say more on work rather than grace.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Membership intertwined much with <strong>ethnicity <\/strong>(i.e. Russian, Greek, etc.), <strong>almost <\/strong>synonymous with being Orthodox.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Weak view of sovereign grace. <strong>Though not Pelagians, they definitely are not Augustinians on sin\/grace<\/strong>. Ezekiel 36:26-27 is foreign to them as God's grace precedes faith &amp; human response. Don't deal much with sin, regeneration, election, etc. Don't really use\/understand \"original sin\" much. Example: Chrysostom vs. Calvin on John 6:44-45.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Use of icons in worship: of Christ, Mary, saints, etc. Annual Feast to celebrate end of Iconoclast controversy (843 A.D.). <strong>Icon <\/strong>of Christ is linked tightly to <strong>incarnation <\/strong>(Jesus as both God and man).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>On the <strong>Bible<\/strong>, some are influenced by contemporary scholars of Rome, higher-criticism and <strong>liberals <\/strong>are within their church. <strong>Ancient Church Fathers<\/strong> have more say in the Bible than <em><strong>sola scriptura<\/strong><\/em>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Passionate for <strong>monasticism<\/strong>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Prayers to Mary<\/strong> in <strong>liturgy<\/strong>. <strong>Apostolic <\/strong>liturgy involves: the Lord's Supper, the Lord's Prayer, sing psalms, hymns, spiritual songs; chanting \"amen\", \"hallelujah\" &amp; \"maranatha\". Anything else would be later development of the liturgy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dr. Kinneer concludes that though he's faithful to the Reformed <em>sola scriptura<\/em>, he thinks we could learn from the Orthodoxy, though I may not completely agree:<br>the <strong>Incarnation<\/strong><br>the meaning of <strong>worship<\/strong><br>the soul's <strong>perfection <\/strong>in the communicable attributes of God (<strong>energies of God<\/strong>)<br>the <strong>disciplines <\/strong>by which we grow in grace<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I asked the question on FB, and <a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/christiantheologicaldiscussion\/posts\/2377138535983327\/?comment_id=2377276752636172&amp;__cft__[0]=AZX1DucB8Xx-GVmFG9UbzBP_MhK3Tq7vVv1DVJSHGWvjsoI0-Q43LVRcP3II814smCFXBzUkkRRiErXAGEzaLE_ci1ejBcuetPG-SngEyJx7K6r-ST7XEHbZB5kvJil01Yw0dup9eoBGv_amdnwk1Fhi&amp;__tn__=R]-R\" data-type=\"link\" data-id=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/christiantheologicaldiscussion\/posts\/2377138535983327\/?comment_id=2377276752636172&amp;__cft__[0]=AZX1DucB8Xx-GVmFG9UbzBP_MhK3Tq7vVv1DVJSHGWvjsoI0-Q43LVRcP3II814smCFXBzUkkRRiErXAGEzaLE_ci1ejBcuetPG-SngEyJx7K6r-ST7XEHbZB5kvJil01Yw0dup9eoBGv_amdnwk1Fhi&amp;__tn__=R]-R\">here's a better response<\/a>, I will bold out the ones (which GO rejects of RC) I have not covered above:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Amie Potter Roberg<br>Orthodoxy has refrained from these Catholic innovations\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>the papacy<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>purgatory<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>the Filioque [GO sees this as twisting John 15:26 to unbalance the Trinity as they erroneously call it the balance of eternal procession]<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>a juridical, legalistic, and meritorious understanding of salvation<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>the doctrine of Original Sin<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>immersion baptism for infants<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>the idea that when one is made a priest, it is an <strong>ontological change<\/strong><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>unleavened bread<\/strong> for Eucharist<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>barring infants from communion<\/strong> until they reach the \"age of reason\" for confirmation<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>confession in a box<\/strong> [GO <a href=\"https:\/\/www.reddit.com\/r\/OrthodoxChristianity\/comments\/5bgjyn\/how_does_confession_work_in_orthodoxy\/\" data-type=\"link\" data-id=\"https:\/\/www.reddit.com\/r\/OrthodoxChristianity\/comments\/5bgjyn\/how_does_confession_work_in_orthodoxy\/\">simply just<\/a> confess directly to a priest in church]<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>strictly unwed priests<\/strong> [GO allowed marry before ordination]<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>statuary <\/strong>icons [GO: no 3D, but only 2D]<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Western <strong>scholasticism <\/strong>[Reason over mysticism. GO: More on <strong>Apophatic <\/strong>(definition on what is <strong>NOT<\/strong>) rather than <strong>Cataphatic <\/strong>(definition on what <strong>is<\/strong>) Theology]<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Absolute Divine <strong>Simplicity <\/strong>[GO <a href=\"https:\/\/www.saintjohnchurch.org\/differences-between-orthodox-and-catholic\/#simplicity\" data-type=\"link\" data-id=\"https:\/\/www.saintjohnchurch.org\/differences-between-orthodox-and-catholic\/#simplicity\">wants to hold<\/a> to both the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.saintjohnchurch.org\/saint-gregory-palamas-essence-energies-distinction\/\">unknowable essence and knowable energies<\/a> of God. As long as both sides concede to a Creator\/Creation Distinction, which I think the Reformed is better at explaining, I don't see much difference to argue over]<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>a Dante's Inferno vision of <strong>Hell <\/strong>[GO doesn't like to speak of hell in the physical sense but mystic spiritual one]<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>a classical theist understanding of God's <strong>relationship <\/strong>to creation [GO: Immanence over transcendence, more on divine energy in creation and less on distinction of creation\/creation, more on caring than sovereignty of God - I would say that's why GO doesn't really do much persecution of anyone in their history]<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p>And <a href=\"https:\/\/www.saintjohnchurch.org\/differences-between-orthodox-and-catholic\/\" data-type=\"link\" data-id=\"https:\/\/www.saintjohnchurch.org\/differences-between-orthodox-and-catholic\/\">here's <\/a>the <strong>GO's version of such comparison<\/strong>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/christiantheologicaldiscussion\/posts\/2377138535983327\/?comment_id=2378484815848699&amp;__cft__[0]=AZVlk9vlCnAY4nuV5PPatpnRM4Iauq2jOx8fuka7pWCymd3VREyEtdl6NrVMTEMy6MqOstXX0k5b1xK0tIBb4PlAUsGFPJGGFQIUbn_iRRk5VGmVBSTtTbrP6BBc743ktDRwiFuxWB0v-HqIwmJAzSkB&amp;__tn__=R]-R\" data-type=\"link\" data-id=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/christiantheologicaldiscussion\/posts\/2377138535983327\/?comment_id=2378484815848699&amp;__cft__[0]=AZVlk9vlCnAY4nuV5PPatpnRM4Iauq2jOx8fuka7pWCymd3VREyEtdl6NrVMTEMy6MqOstXX0k5b1xK0tIBb4PlAUsGFPJGGFQIUbn_iRRk5VGmVBSTtTbrP6BBc743ktDRwiFuxWB0v-HqIwmJAzSkB&amp;__tn__=R]-R\">Next<\/a> with have GO's view on atonement, which is against PSA (penal substitutionary atonement) which came from <strong>Anselm's Satisfaction theory<\/strong> (12th century AD). GO holds to the <strong><a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Christus_Victor#:~:text=Aul%C3%A9n%20argues%20that%20the%20%22classic,could%20become%20what%20he%20is.\" data-type=\"link\" data-id=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Christus_Victor#:~:text=Aul%C3%A9n%20argues%20that%20the%20%22classic,could%20become%20what%20he%20is.\">Ransom Theory<\/a><\/strong>, which is later popularized in Gustaf Aulen's book <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theopedia.com\/christus-victor#:~:text=The%20Ransom%20Theory%20was%20predominant,Great%2C%20and%20Gregory%20the%20Great.&amp;text=As%20the%20term%20Christus%20Victor,could%20become%20what%20he%20is%22.\" data-type=\"link\" data-id=\"https:\/\/www.theopedia.com\/christus-victor#:~:text=The%20Ransom%20Theory%20was%20predominant,Great%2C%20and%20Gregory%20the%20Great.&amp;text=As%20the%20term%20Christus%20Victor,could%20become%20what%20he%20is%22.\">Christus Victor<\/a> in 1931. Ransom Theory began with <a href=\"https:\/\/www.reasonablefaith.org\/podcasts\/defenders-podcast-series-3\/s3-doctrine-of-christ\/doctrine-of-christ-part-14#:~:text=For%20about%20nine%20hundred%20years,him%20to%20do%20his%20will.\" data-type=\"link\" data-id=\"https:\/\/www.reasonablefaith.org\/podcasts\/defenders-podcast-series-3\/s3-doctrine-of-christ\/doctrine-of-christ-part-14#:~:text=For%20about%20nine%20hundred%20years,him%20to%20do%20his%20will.\">Irenaeus<\/a>, saying that this ransom is paid to Satan, until Anselm changed it from Satan to God.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Stephen Tong gave similar correction of the view:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"\uff03\u8036\u7a4c\u628a\u8d16\u50f9\u4ea4\u7d66\u8ab0\u2753\u70ba\u4f55\u6069\u5178\u548c\u77e5\u8b58\u90fd\u8981\u9577\u9032\u2753\u4e0a\u5e1d\u5982\u4f55\u4f7f\u6559\u6703\u7526\u9192\u2753\uff08\u5e0c\u4f2f\u4f86\u66f8\u8981\u7406\u554f\u7b54 \u7b2c478\u554f\uff09\" width=\"640\" height=\"360\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/sUztj85ZkX8?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"\uff03\u8036\u7a4c\u57fa\u7763\u8cb7\u8d16\u6211\u5011\u7f6a\u4eba\u6240\u4ed8\u7684\u91cd\u50f9\uff0c\u70ba\u4f55\u662f\u511f\u4ed8\u7d66\u4e0a\u5e1d\u800c\u4e0d\u662f\u7d66\u9b54\u9b3c\u2753\uff08\u5e0c\u4f2f\u4f86\u66f8\u8981\u7406\u554f\u7b54 \u7b2c479\u554f\uff09\" width=\"640\" height=\"360\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/y2W-5gQcC0Q?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Since someone at church mentioned that the Eastern church (Orthodox, with capital \"O\") is closer to \"true\" Christianity\" than Roman Catholicism, which just seems logically odd since the Protestant church came out of the West instead of the East, meaning &hellip; <a href=\"http:\/\/nycphantom.com\/journal\/?p=15711\">Continue reading <span class=\"meta-nav\">&rarr;<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[6],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-15711","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-theologization"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"http:\/\/nycphantom.com\/journal\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/15711","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"http:\/\/nycphantom.com\/journal\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"http:\/\/nycphantom.com\/journal\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/nycphantom.com\/journal\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/nycphantom.com\/journal\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=15711"}],"version-history":[{"count":10,"href":"http:\/\/nycphantom.com\/journal\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/15711\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":18164,"href":"http:\/\/nycphantom.com\/journal\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/15711\/revisions\/18164"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"http:\/\/nycphantom.com\/journal\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=15711"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/nycphantom.com\/journal\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=15711"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/nycphantom.com\/journal\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=15711"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}