偷梁换柱：指暗中替换关键部分以达到蒙混目的。
I like this 成語。Reminds me of the times I had to deal with fundamentalist folks like Keith Graham, the latest being on the concept of "Universe" and "Cosmos", which Keith using conditional anachronistic terminology (cosmos being the modern universe rather than the solar system) to accuse Galileo of being wrong about his heliocentric system.
「顧左右而言他」這個成語出自《孟子·梁惠王下》，意思是看著兩旁的人，說別的話。常用來形容人無法回答或不願面對問題時，有意避開主題，用別的話題來搪塞。 [1]
Pasting the full conversation here just in case:
Keith:
On this date (June 22) A.D. 1633, the papacy forced Galileo to recant his view that the Sun, not the Earth, is the center of the universe.
If the universe is infinite, both Galileo and his opponents are wrong because the idea of centrality is meaningless for an infinite universe!
But though our puny science cannot find its limits, the universe is not infinite. It is a finite creation of the eternal, omnipotent Creator God Whose only "limit" is the perfection of His divine nature in all its unified attributes.
And God took humanity to Himself in a special way. That would be the incarnation of the Second Person of the Trinity, God the Son. After Jesus had made purification for the sins of His people and risen from the dead (never successfully refuted; no remains ever found), He was seen ascending upward from the Earth and out of sight of those who saw that.
Wherever Jesus Christ is now is the spiritual center of the all things, whether or not there is some point among the galaxies that might be determined to be physically central to the cosmos.
Me:
The 1633 affair was concerning the solar system, not the universe in the 20th century sense.
To call Galileo wrong by changing the vocabulary of his time using modern terminologies is like saying the whole planet, even the Chinese, Americans and Mexicans were taxed in Jesus' time because the Bible says Caesar Augustus decreed that ALL THE WORLD should be taxed - and oh by the way, only Jesus is King and the greatest one.
Or basically like saying: Ancient navigators often lost at seas because they didn't have portable batteries to charge their GPS, so the idea of GPS is meaningless if you don't even have the batteries to charge it - Only God is the true source of power!
Keith:
Timothy Law you are right as far as the scheme for which Galileo argued. By the use of the term "solar system" you are essentially identifying that scheme.
However, scripture "centralized" Earth in the sense that the sun, the moon, and the stars (including the wandering ones we call planets, and we can reasonably include comets et. al. in the star category) all had an Earthward purpose.
We can use a simple hand held compass to create a circle with a central point. Imagine the circle spinning and you've got a sphere with a central point. But do we know the central point of the entire cosmos?
If not, how can one claim that the Earth, the sun, or some point within the so-called Milky Way galaxy is "central" in any meaningful way, even if we can discover how bodies within the cosmos move in relation to one another?
To keep us in the godly mindset to which the 131st Psalm exhorts us, let's consider a couple of the inspired, infallible, inerrant Bible's accounts of miraculous events:
1. Joshua 10:12-14. The sun "stands still...and doesn't go down for about a whole day."
2. 2 Kings 20:8-11. The shadow on a SUNdial goes BACK ten degrees.
Whether conceived in the 17th or any other century, any astrophysical model which ispo facto must deny or scoff at these historical wonders is in error.
Me:
Keith Graham So nobody's is claiming the kind of geometric center you are talking about. To insist on that is bordering slander, unless you bring in some wacko nobody recognizes to stand trial.
For any man of letters, we know that theological/literary centrality does not equate geometric/physical centrality. Just because God created the universe with an "Earthward" purpose, does not mean Earth is the physical pivot point of the cosmos. Spiritual importance does not equal geometric centrality. To not see this is to punish the blessing (i.e. creativity) God breathed in man and even to limit God's sovereignty. Implying that God is bound by human definitions of geography and geometry to show favor.
Miracles don't break honest understanding of God's general revelation. Acknowledging that the Earth moves around the Sun does not mean God couldn't miraculously pause that movement in the days of Joshua. In fact, God demanded this kind of discernment from Job until he repented, Jesus mocked the slacking away from natural application due to this false dichotomy in Matthew 16:2. We can say God is sovereign over His laws and creation, but it is wrong to imply God a liar.
Keith:
Timothy Law So where's our argument?
I never denied that Earth orbits the sun by asserting the Earthward purpose of the heavenly bodies. Do you agree that a geometric/physical "center" of the entire cosmos cannot be determined?
Me:
Keith Graham I believe you called Galileo's heliocentric system wrong by twisting his definition of terms. Hence the argument. You want to both accept and deny something at the same time. Classic Ken Ham move. It's like saying 2+2 = 4, but by God, 2+2 can also not equal 4 but 5, therefore both Tim and that kid who answered 5 are wrong, if the equal sign can have infinite meaning, viz. "both Galileo and his opponents are wrong".
Which essentially means you're the only (and only those who agree with you) right one no matter what because only your version of sola scriptura is correct. This was actually how the Roman Church erred...in their denial of the noetic effect of sin.
As for a geometric center of the cosmos as we define it today, nobody (not even Galileo) is claiming that basing on the current model of the universe, it is as uneducated as asking a child to determine the center of a balloon on its surface, or asking to determine the four corners of a ball. So there really is no need to go down that road, because it's an embarrassment. Just because we can utter words doesn't mean we must validate any series of words to be meaningful, as someone wise once said "The ability to speak does not make you intelligent", cool quote, you like? I can play it for you here.
Keith:
No, I'm asserting that anybody is wrong if they assert that any point in the cosmos is central. And "the current model of the universe" is just that...a conjecture about its structure (and one that usually includes a cosmogony contradicts Scripture's Earthward focus and time of origin.)
(And see above, I did note that Galileo's scheme related to what is called the "solar system," not the entire cosmos.)
Me:
Keith Graham As I've mentioned before, it is embarrassing to make that kind of assertion.
It's like saying "IF THE UNIVERSE is infinite, then both Keith and Joe are wrong about a wheel having a center - oh...what I meant was if the wheel is the universe...and now that I'm being caught, I shall note that I recognize Keith's scheme relates to what is called a steering wheel, not the entire cosmos...". It's really bad English to be honest on top of a very irresponsible communication motive.
As for your flaw in Scripture's Earthward focus, I've already given my rebuttal above regarding the confusion of literary/spiritual vs. geometric/physical.
As for your remarks on conjectures, I've already commented before regarding noetic effect of sin, so if you don't get that, I think I need not pursue this one further, lest you think anyone smarter than YOU is proving themselves smarter than GOD.
Just to add, the Chinese has an idiom(s) for just what you were attempting: 偷梁换柱 (顧左右而言他). Feel free to look them up.