Was Adam Immortal Prefall?

I remember Alex once told me: Adam was incorruptible prefall while Jesus was corruptible in incarnation. I agree with the latter, but the former is questionable. Perhaps Alex was just trying to make it of an literary art.

But the question remains: Was Adam truly immortal when he was created? After some research, especially with the new upgraded Logos 10 Gold Software, full feature without any library addition, I was able to easily look for some reformed answer to this.

Basically, the answer is, Adam was not likely immortal. As far as the reformers are concern. The Baptists, fundamentalists may have the immortal view (i.e. John Gill's "Adam, upon sinning, was at once stripped of the immortality of his body..." ~ A Complete Body of Doctrinal and Practical Divinity Vol1. p 461) or "provisionally immortal" by Methodists like Adam Clarke (The Holy Bible with a Commentary and Critical Notes, Vols. 1-VI, Ge 5:12; V1, p 64). But because his mortality is unknown in prefall and that had he not sinned, his incorruptibility would be guaranteed, therefore in this sense, we can call Adam immortal or incorruptible before the fall, as that was the goal of it all.

Most reformers viewed the tree of life not an actual giver of immortality. Lane Tipton was aware of this as well in his TH221 Doctrine of Man. It is a sacrament, a seal, confirmation of immortality had Adam obeyed righteously. Tipton also said in the work/video (which I don't have), that Adam "Why does Paul speak this way? referring to 2 Corinthians 5:12, I believe,,,Adam, while created very good and sinless, was not created in a glorified eschatological state...was not clothed in the full perfection of righteousness and holiness. He was not confirmed in glory and immortality. Adam's pre-fall body exists in the estate of innocency, not glory."

For John Calvin, what's withdrawn was the assurance of it, it was not immortality that was removed. It's also interesting to note that in his Institutes, Calvin stated that even if Adam had eaten from the tree of life after his sin, he would not have had immortality restored. Those Genesis verse God was speaking in was referring to Adam's vain confidence in the tree of life, not a true cure.

John Calvin's Institutes Book IV. Chapter 14.12:...when he sees meet to withdraw our assurance of the things which he had promised in the sacraments, takes away the sacraments themselves. When he deprives Adam of the gift of immortality, and expels him from the garden, “lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and live for ever” (Gen. 3:22). What is this we hear? Could that fruit have restored Adam to the immortality from which he had already fallen? By no means. It is just as if he had said, Lest he indulge in vain confidence, if allowed to retain the symbol of my promise, let that be withdrawn which might give him some hope of immortality...
...14.18: Calvin also used the Tree of life to Adam and the Bow to Noah as sacraments. In that, the rainbow itself does not confine water, nor the tree of life actually give immortality.

Charles Hodge's view is that the Church Fathers embraced a sort of probation period for Adam's mortality-immortality uncertainty.

Charles Hodge's Systematic Theology Volume 2, Page 116, Chapter V Original State of Man, #6 Pelagian and Rationalistic Doctrine...With regard to this subject it is to be remarked that there are two distinct points to be considered. First, whether Adam would have died had he not sinned; and second, whether his body as originally formed was adapted to an immortal state of existence. As to the former there can be no doubt...The second point is much less clear, and less important...one view...Adam was to pass his probation...translated to the heavenly paradise...Luther...tree of life...to eat had they not sinned...to preserve their bodies in perpetual youth...others...had he maintained his integrity, would have undergone a change analogous to...those who shall be alive at the second coming of Christ...the corruptible shall put on incorruption, and the mortal shall put on immortality...then his [Adam] body...required to be changed to fit it for immortality.

Martin Luther in his Genesis 2:17 commentary stated that Adam could fall and because of that, this given immortality, sustained by the power of the trees for him as food, has not been made sure and it is not our business to investigate why God created man in this "middle condition", contrasting the creation of angels.

Martin Luther, Luther’s Works, Vol. 1: Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 1-5, ed. Jaroslav Jan Pelikan, Hilton C. Oswald, and Helmut T. Lehmann, vol. 1 (Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1999), 111–112...Adam was immortal because the trees created for him had the power to maintain his life unimpaired. But this immortality had not been made so sure for him that it was impossible for him to fall into mortality. It is not our business to determine or to investigate too inquisitively why God wanted to create man in this middle condition, or why man was so created that all people are brought into being from one through procreation. The angels were not created in this condition...

Geerhardus Vos consider Adam's state of immortality not apparent or awaiting in the covenant of works.

Geerhardus Vos' Reformed Dogmatics V2,
p 16 (p 196 in my digital copy): #19. What must be said concerning the question whether Adam was mortal or immortal? Vos compared 5 different kinds of immortality.

p41: #16. How can one show that there was a specific promise in the covenant of works?
...c) The same follows from the parallel between what Adam should have done and what Christ has done. The latter has brought eternal life and immortality to light (2 Tim 1:10). Adam, too, would have done this if he had not succumbed in his probation.

Herman Bavinck treated it carefully, so it may seem at first he supported the immortality view, but when read further, it's not as simple as one may think. In fact, he even called immortality not natural.

Herman Bavinck's Reformed Dogmatics, Volume 2: God and Creation, p. 560. Part V: The Image of God #12 Human Nature:
...Immortality and impassibility could not strictly be called natural...belongs to the essence of man and to the image of God, it originally also participated in immortality. God is not a God of the dead, but of the living (Matt. 22:32). Death is a consequence of sin (Gen. 2:7; 3:19; Rom. 5:12; 6:23; 1 Cor. 15:21, 56). In the case of Adam, however, this immortality did not consist in a state of not being able to die (non posse mori), or in eternal and imperishable life, but only in the condition of being able not to die (posse non mori), [from Augustine's conception of freedom] the condition of not going to die in case of obedience. This state was not absolute but conditional...

On an interesting side note, in the same paragraph: "The incarnation of God is proof that human beings and not angels are created in the image of God, and that the human body is an essential component of that image...God could not have been able to become man if he had not first made man in his own image."

Bavinck also stated in his Reformed Ethics, available in two volumes digitally but I have yet to obtained at the moment, Reformed Ethics, Volume One, p. 252..."Physical life cannot be immortal of itself, not even in Adam, in whom it might have been eternalized through the spiritual."

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Sunday Service Recap - 10/30/2022

Sermon on Colossians 4:7-15

Reflection verse: Philippians 2:1-3

v. 14: [Interesting that Calvin does not identify Luke here as the Evangelist, noting that the Evangelist would be too well known to stand in need of such a designation.] Demas here who greets is generally accepted as the same who deserted Paul later (2Ti 4:10).

Questions for Discussion/Self Reflection:
1. Are you more interested in the message than any messenger...?
[For me it would be both. May or may not be the intent of the question. An interest in knowing the messenger helps me interpret the message through his mouth accurately, without mistaking much of its intent. So this is nothing to do with personal taste of the speakers. Just because I love a specific speaker more, does not mean what he say is more "right" to me than others. So there is no need to separate the message and messenger in such inorganic way.]

2. Zeal for God is diverse. Growth in Zeal. [I appreciate the pastor's acknowledgment of this. Diversity and Zeal, which I find lacking sometimes in the fundamentalists, especially the combination of the two.]

3. What inhibits modern fellowship...?
[This only reminds me of individualism. And "Say not thou, what is the cause that the former days were better than these" Ecc 7:10 also shows that there is no excuse to compare today with past culture as if the American culture were more Christian in a nationalistic sense. Because though it can be argued that in the past, there were more great Christians known in this country, what today is, if any worse, cannot be blamed to God and therefore, the failure in passing down such inheritance from previous generation to the next is left to be blamed. And this is a blame on us, on the previous generation. And because of some complacency into individualism, many, especially the reformed, have come to a mutated corruption in a belief, that they need not work hard on their zeal, calling it - Not God's calling, not their business. Which is now becoming destructive for the church at best, dwindling in numbers, and yet calling in their hearts (for they know it is wrong to say it out) those without and who left apostates.]

The pastor shared his Bob Jones Uni chapel experience one time, a missionary from China preached having the audience stood for the entire time listening without any reason given. Making them feeling annoyed until the end, to prove how the suffering of Christians in China was greater than these who mere stood for 35 mins of sermon.

Earlier in Sunday School:

WCF 18:1-3
This notion of "none of our business" came up again, in 18.1-2: If they are not saved, none of our business. No, I have learned enough about pastor Chris to not immediately accuse him of having no zeal in the Gospel. But the language of it, I would take care to learn in their language to speak better. I could say:

[...By none of our business, you meant that we do not police their walk of life, but still seek to love from the angle of the Gospel/Great Commission every opportunity we get, right?]

Other accounts:

In music service, we researched and played How Vast the Love by Sovereign Grace Music:

As usual, I am not one to be able to pay attention to the lyrics of these kind. I would say it's a time thing, I don't have the time to focus on such, not just the fact that I naturally just do not discern lyrics from music. Whenever I hear a song, the music is my only focus, not the lyrics, at least not at first. So I won't comment on the lyrics, which even now I have yet looked into. Moses did not have to see the sacrifice of the golden calf in detail but by mere audio from afar he knew what they were doing.

This song has a lot of syncopations. I asked myself, what then is the use of syncopation in general? Certainly not common for battle songs, or anything firm or sure. At best is witty, cunning, wise?

Over the week, I've learned from Liebenzell Fest 2022 dinner (from Tom) that church membership requirement for holy communion isn't necessarily a thing in OPC. I have to take Tom's word for it since he does appear to know more about OPC than I do, seeing that he's been to several in NJ while I've only just been to on in Westfield. If that is so, that means the Westfield folks brought this fundamentalist ideal into OPC out of custom. Later from Rodolfo I've also learned that the church he left was promoting this legalistic view that members should attend both morning and evening services, which is a familiar practice at Westfield OPC as well (and one of the member I recall spoke of attending evening service as if it's a sin not to). Boy I've learned so much of American church custom all of the sudden. Especially on the conservative side. I thank God for directing me out of CCCNY, out of certain churches, to be able to learn all these.

I recall earlier during rehearsal before the Sunday School, Tom mentioned that he would not attend Reformed Baptist church while pastor would. I didn't get a chance to follow on that. Because I wanted to say I would attend it, though I do not know if the pastor's reasoning would be the same as mine - be prepared to say: Lord, forgive them for they know not what they say" in my heart when I meet those folks.

Also, on baptism, Tom told me that Lane Tipton would not allow membership for those who do not want to have their children baptized. If I heard correctly. If so, this is news to me. And after careful thinking, I think I agree with Lane on this. No, it's not about a theological vengeance against the Baptists (i.e. if you are of Baptist mindset, you shall be disciplined in such, we do not take the accusation of pedobaptism = golden calf likely), but this is all about the understanding of COVENANT.

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Thoughts

10/30/2022 I took my drone to check out the recent traffic build up around Bordentown Ave. It seems that there's some sort of heavy traffic on route 9 North (possibly due to construction) lately that they took a detour to 35 North via Bordentown Ave. This also gave me a chance to check out South Amboy's 2022 Fall Foliage from above.

Recommended readings by Joel Beeke on Reformation Day: William Perkins.

Came across a good take by ThirdMill on how Calvin did not KILL/MURDER Servetus. Copy pasted in comment. It was not for heresy that we stone them, but for the misleading of the whole away from God. It's possible that had Calvin had his way, he would have spared Servetus, even though Calvin would be stern against Servetus' heresy, even to the death.

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Bible Study: Psalm 18

v.2: my rock, fortress, deliverer: That which I stand on, find refuge in, am redeemed by. Which is also identity, protection and salvation, respectively.

v.7: Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth. This seems to align with Matthew 27:51-53.

v. 8: The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. This is set against what Eve in Eden saw of the fruit of the knowledge tree. Genesis 3:6 - that it was pleasant to the eyes. Eve made the commandment of the LORD impure.

v.9: The fear of the Lord is not something you are involved with only when you are a sinner. It is everlasting from prefall to the new heaven and Earth, because it is as clean as the creator-creation distinction.

v.19: Who are the elects? The ones whom God delights in, not because of merits (neither strength v.17, and certainly not of ends instead of means: rewarded vs. deliverer v.20,24).

v.31: "who is a rock..." - ומי צור can be translated as "who is strong/mighty..." The Indonesians (IBIS) translated צור as pembela (defender).

v.43-45: Unlike Solomon who mingled with the strangers, David neither mingled nor submit to them, but ruled over them, made by God, before God. A true type of Christ.

v.45: The strangers shall fade away...Those whose motive were never truly to serve God before men, before David. For true submission (v.44) will remain strangers no more.

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First mention of Ancient Israel outside Bible - Merneptah Stele

Came across this on FB, someone answered the question: What extra-biblical sources contain references to Egypt and Moses/Joshua/Exodus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merneptah_Stele

Kevin Thomas answered on FB:

There is evidence. The most famous and arguably the most important discovery related to Moses and the Exodus is the Merneptah Stele. In ca. 1208 B.C. Pharaoh Merneptah erected a 10-foot tall victory monument (called a stele) in a temple at Thebes to boast of his claims of victory in both Libya and Canaan. It was discovered in 1896 by Sir Flinders Petrie. On it, Merneptah boasts, “Israel is wasted, its seed is not; And Hurru (Canaan) is become a widow because of Egypt.”47 The inscription likely refers to a small campaign into Canaan (only three cities are taken), and despite Merneptah’s boast, Israel was not destroyed.

Most scholars agree that this is the oldest definitive reference to Israel as a nation outside of the Bible and certainly the clearest Egyptian reference to Israel. It is also important because it points towards an early date for the exodus (ca. 1446 B.C.) and not the late date that some scholars hold to (ca. 1270 B.C.). It is doubtful that there would be enough time from 1270 B.C. to 1208 B.C. to account for the exodus, the 40 years of wandering in the dessert, the seven-year conquest of Canaan, the settlement of the tribes in their territories, and the establishment of a national presence in the land, all before Merneptah claims to have conquered them. Merneptah’s Canaanite campaign instead likely dates to the time of the Judges, when the nation of Israel was already settled in Canaan. The Merneptah Stele is evidence that the Exodus from Egypt, led by Moses, took place in the 15th century BC, as the biblical data indicates.

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Vocabulary: Hissy fit

slang:

a sudden period of uncontrolled and silly anger like a child's: Sue threw a hissy fit when she found out

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Dream: Stranded on planet - sort of

After doing a study on Poythress and Meredith Kline's work on "The First Resurrection", particularly on Revelation 20:4-6, last night on the bed, I had a strange dream.

We (I don't recall who, Nadia did not seem to be in it) for some reason had to leave planet Earth and got stranded on a planet. Gene and Elizabeth and others later managed to escape the planet. I was stuck there with the likes of Ben Stiller who with his other pals goofed around in filming or something when the planet turned icy. I think I was trying to solve the ice problem, whatever it was I do not remember. It seemed that we went through long hibernation and one day while roaming through ice, I heard a rescue team on the radio confirming our location/existence: "bla bla bla...over". I responded using the walkie-talkie radio "bla bla bla...over", and immediately a huge space ship entered the hall that I was in. We then learned that it was Gene who sponsored the rescue expedition. I hugged all four of them (they had 2 kids about 6-9 year old) in gratitude.

Just before waking up or at the end of the dream, we learned later that the planet we were stranded on was actually Earth itself. And that we escaped it because it was either running into the Sun or leaving the orbit. However, the planet somehow catapulted itself lightyears into the future. We were stranded in the ice-age very quickly that we didn't even bother to explore the entire planet to realize where we were until the rescue mission.

I think the "blame" of this is the influence of various shows I watched. Too many movies/TV ideas. Stargate Universe, Planet of the Ape, any dystopia movies. There was only one other apocalypse-like dream of biblical proportion that I had. Perhaps I need to meditate more in Godly terms and not worldly ones.

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Historical timeline on Church Councils and Heresies

Here's one good one from google: https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/magazine/article/heresy-in-the-early-church-timeline

I'll post more as I find more. The goal is to have a foundational clear view on such history. What each councils tackled, etc. Where did the heresies, creeds, fall in the timeline.

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Vocabulary: Capitulate


Kathy’s Word of the Week

Weekly Brain Food brought to you by our CHRO

capitulate

Pronunciation:

capitulate

Definition:

to give up resistance

As used in a sentence:

He finally capitulated and agreed to do the job my way.

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Hike Mt. Minsi - A Second time

With my limited Delaware Water Gap knowledge, Mt. Minsi is the only few free hiking spots I know. Nadia and I did the hike half way (not reaching the peak of the mount) last year.

This time (Saturday 10/22/2022), we went with church folks, all 6 of us, after my email attempt to invite more. Gene arrived first at noon, we were about 30 mins late and the parking was tough so we parked down the hill road, which Nadia said had a sign of no parking. I beg to differ, but did not confirm after the hike.

We almost did the entire 5 mile loop, but we did further than Nadia and I last year. If it's a lot less than about 2 hour drive (1hr 46 mins), I might have done it myself to explore more in the area. Overall everyone enjoyed it, and perhaps that's the max of general church folks' capability. Not too short, not too long. And it was a perfect weather and time of the foliage season: 70F, peak of foliage. A rare chance to get everyone on a Saturday. I got Gene and Clyde to try my drone. I uploaded the video to Youtube as unlisted. I notice that the videos edited from Shotcut is not as clear/high resolution as I wished. I need to look into this editing stuff.

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